Scholl begins by going over what exactly Caroll did in his consultant role.
"Lie..you use the word 'lie' where I would use the word 'actor'," says Caroll. "We were like actors; we had a script."
"Either way it's not true," says Scholl.
"It's not true," says Caroll agreeing to Scholl's statement.
Caroll agrees that when he met Ford in April that Ford had not committed any corrupt acts that he was aware of.
"I did not know Ford or his background," says Caroll.
The dinner at Morton's Steakhouse consisted of 8 or more people. It was probably an expensive dinner, but Caroll doesn't know for sure how much it cost or what he ate that night. The one thing he does know was that he didn't bribe John Ford that night.
"I never paid John Ford any money," says Caroll when asked if he gave Ford money the night of the dinner.
Caroll admits that he never gave Ford money at any time during the investigation.
Thursday, April 12, 2007
Lunch Talk
On March 8 2005, Joe Caroll recorded a lunch convesation between himself and John Ford. The conversation talks about the bills and which ones Caroll wants Ford to approve for E-Cycle.
"Do you know, you know you introduced two bills?" says Caroll.
Ford agrees and Caroll tells him he wants the second bill and not the first one passed.
"Okay and I'll go with 94," says Ford, meaning Bill 94 -the second bill. This is the one that says the equipment will be broken down out of the State of Tennessee.
"I'll have 'em General Sub that one. We'll go," says Ford.
"What's that, what's that do?" asks Caroll.
"We'll put it in General, hold it," says Ford.
Putting the bill into General Sub puts in suspension.
"Do you know, you know you introduced two bills?" says Caroll.
Ford agrees and Caroll tells him he wants the second bill and not the first one passed.
"Okay and I'll go with 94," says Ford, meaning Bill 94 -the second bill. This is the one that says the equipment will be broken down out of the State of Tennessee.
"I'll have 'em General Sub that one. We'll go," says Ford.
"What's that, what's that do?" asks Caroll.
"We'll put it in General, hold it," says Ford.
Putting the bill into General Sub puts in suspension.
Ford files two bills
Even though E-Cycle's business model didn't make sense, legislation was actually filed on behalf of E-Cycle. Caroll says he saw the legislation.
When it came to legislation two bills were filed by Ford.
"I believe they were filed in January 2005," says Caroll. "He filed one bill -- was Senate bill 28 -- which had everything we wanted with the exception that the items had to destroyed outside the State of Tennessee."
LC McNeil asked Ford to refile the bill correctly on their behalf with the words "outside the State of Tennessee" added. By the time the second bill was filed, the FBI had two more senators who agreed to sponsor the bill. According to Caroll, just like Ford they were paid bribes to co-sponsor the bill. These Senators were Crutchfield and Miller.
"I met them through Charles Love," says Caroll when asked how he met the two co-sponsors.
When it came to legislation two bills were filed by Ford.
"I believe they were filed in January 2005," says Caroll. "He filed one bill -- was Senate bill 28 -- which had everything we wanted with the exception that the items had to destroyed outside the State of Tennessee."
LC McNeil asked Ford to refile the bill correctly on their behalf with the words "outside the State of Tennessee" added. By the time the second bill was filed, the FBI had two more senators who agreed to sponsor the bill. According to Caroll, just like Ford they were paid bribes to co-sponsor the bill. These Senators were Crutchfield and Miller.
"I met them through Charles Love," says Caroll when asked how he met the two co-sponsors.
Ford likes the the boat
The jury got the chance to listen to this first transcript. This one took place on October 12, 2004 in Memphis.
Charles Love and Caroll ran into Ford by accident in parking lot. Ford was out making notes on car tags and they joke a little about how it looks like he's writing traffic tickets. Based on the conversation, this was after the Miami yacht trip and Ford had already drafted the legistlation.
"We're talking to some people about our legistlation," says Caroll to Ford.
They continued talking about unrelated topics and then Ford got on the topic of the boat.
"I told them I was on a 10 million dollar yacht. I didn't mention any names," says Ford. "You own that boat?"
Ford later on talked about his success at passing bills.
"I passed all sixty," says Ford, meaning bills.
"I told you he liked that boat," says Charles Love to Caroll at the end of the conversation.
Charles Love and Caroll ran into Ford by accident in parking lot. Ford was out making notes on car tags and they joke a little about how it looks like he's writing traffic tickets. Based on the conversation, this was after the Miami yacht trip and Ford had already drafted the legistlation.
"We're talking to some people about our legistlation," says Caroll to Ford.
They continued talking about unrelated topics and then Ford got on the topic of the boat.
"I told them I was on a 10 million dollar yacht. I didn't mention any names," says Ford. "You own that boat?"
Ford later on talked about his success at passing bills.
"I passed all sixty," says Ford, meaning bills.
"I told you he liked that boat," says Charles Love to Caroll at the end of the conversation.
The infamous Bowers dinner
We heard about the dinner Mrs. Bowers hosted yesterday on April 19, 2004. What makes this dinner significant was that was when Ford got involved in the Tennessee Waltz operation.
According to Caroll, Bowers organized the dinner by inviting who she thought "leaders" would be, but she didn't pay for it. E-Cycle did. The dinner happened at Morton's Steakhouse in Nashville.
Senator Ford happened to be one of the leaders invited to the dinner. Caroll says he didn't know who Senator Ford was prior to that dinner. He also says that the agents had never mentioned Ford to him before.
Along with John Ford, both Turner and Charles Love became subjects of the investigation after this dinner.
According to Caroll, Bowers organized the dinner by inviting who she thought "leaders" would be, but she didn't pay for it. E-Cycle did. The dinner happened at Morton's Steakhouse in Nashville.
Senator Ford happened to be one of the leaders invited to the dinner. Caroll says he didn't know who Senator Ford was prior to that dinner. He also says that the agents had never mentioned Ford to him before.
Along with John Ford, both Turner and Charles Love became subjects of the investigation after this dinner.
A company doomed to fail
E-Cycle was created to fail.
"Our business model was a complete 180 degrees. It didn't make sense," says Caroll.
According to Caroll, E-Cycle was going to pay money to buy surplus or outdated electronic equipment from the state of Tennessee. They were then going to ship it to the Philippines where it was going to be broken down.
Caroll says in the "real" world, they couldn't find any company that would pay for surplus equipment. It's usually just thrown into landfills. In other words, E-Cycle was paying for garbage.
Of course, Caroll and the E-Cycle team didn't tell people this. Instead they told people that they had been using this business model in other states and it had been successful.
"Our business model was a complete 180 degrees. It didn't make sense," says Caroll.
According to Caroll, E-Cycle was going to pay money to buy surplus or outdated electronic equipment from the state of Tennessee. They were then going to ship it to the Philippines where it was going to be broken down.
Caroll says in the "real" world, they couldn't find any company that would pay for surplus equipment. It's usually just thrown into landfills. In other words, E-Cycle was paying for garbage.
Of course, Caroll and the E-Cycle team didn't tell people this. Instead they told people that they had been using this business model in other states and it had been successful.
Second Witness: Joe Caroll
Thursday begins with the prosecutor interviewing Joe Caroll. Joe was the retired FBI agent who played the role of E-Cycle's president aka Joe Carson. He's spent 30 years with the FBI.
Joe says one of the reasons the FBI sets up fictitious companies rather than working with existing companies is because they think about the liability they have after the case is over.
"You might not want to be known as a company that supported the FBI in a corruption case against the Tennessee and then have to work with the State after," says Caroll.
The fictitious company is set up to look as real as possible. This includes offices, business cards (Exhibit 74a), brochures (Exhibit 74b), entertainment events such as the yacht party -- which was used once in the sting. The company was also officially incorporated with offices in Memphis and Nashville.
"When in Rome do as the Romans do, if you will. You have to appear as if you are equal to other companies involved in similar types of business you're involved in," says Caroll.
At first Caroll wasn't interested in being a part of the sting.
"I didn't have the time or the interest initially. I was merely talking to them about the different techniques," says Caroll.
Caroll's role was that he was a venture capitalist with money to spend.
"I have some personal and some professional knowledge in that particular industry," says Caroll.
Caroll says it's important that the agents have a background story and that everyone is aware of the story.
"It not uncommon for someone to come up and say 'Where did you two guys meet?' You need to know what the other guy is going to say," says Caroll.
Joe says one of the reasons the FBI sets up fictitious companies rather than working with existing companies is because they think about the liability they have after the case is over.
"You might not want to be known as a company that supported the FBI in a corruption case against the Tennessee and then have to work with the State after," says Caroll.
The fictitious company is set up to look as real as possible. This includes offices, business cards (Exhibit 74a), brochures (Exhibit 74b), entertainment events such as the yacht party -- which was used once in the sting. The company was also officially incorporated with offices in Memphis and Nashville.
"When in Rome do as the Romans do, if you will. You have to appear as if you are equal to other companies involved in similar types of business you're involved in," says Caroll.
At first Caroll wasn't interested in being a part of the sting.
"I didn't have the time or the interest initially. I was merely talking to them about the different techniques," says Caroll.
Caroll's role was that he was a venture capitalist with money to spend.
"I have some personal and some professional knowledge in that particular industry," says Caroll.
Caroll says it's important that the agents have a background story and that everyone is aware of the story.
"It not uncommon for someone to come up and say 'Where did you two guys meet?' You need to know what the other guy is going to say," says Caroll.
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